»We sit on a tiny boat measuring this giant, hidden thing.«
Eleanor Frajka-Williams
You grew up by the sea in California. How did your relationship to the ocean begin?
I do not remember my first contact with the sea, because it was always there. I grew up in Palos Verdes, a peninsula just south of Los Angeles, surrounded by water on three sides. From almost anywhere, you could see the ocean. As a child, the sea was a place for sports, for climbing down cliffs to explore tide pools, for looking at little creatures. I thought of it as a place for marine biology – fish, whales. Physics did not come into it for me until university. The ocean was just a recreational thing, a boundary, a place where creatures lived.
What led you to pursue research about the ocean, especially from a physics perspective?
I studied math as an undergraduate. When I was looking at graduate programs, I wanted to apply my math skills. I looked at environmental engineering, which was about wastewater treatment, and at ocean engineering, which was all on the coasts. Honestly, it was a choice between dealing with poop or the beach. During my bachelor’s, my supervisor was a hydrologist, but all land-based – clouds and rain over the Himalayas. My first real experience at sea was a summer program at a marine research institute, but even then I did not see it as about the oceans. It was geophysics. It took a while before I saw the ocean as something I could study with physics.
How do you explain your work to someone who is not into science?
I usually say I study ocean circulation – how the ocean moves water around the planet. I reference the Gulf Stream, even though it’s just a part of it. I try to understand how fast the circulation is going, what causes it to change, and what effect those changes have on the ocean and on us as humans.
Has your relationship to the sea changed since you became a researcher?
It is a very different fascination now. Before, it was about what I could see. Now we are making measurements of something we will never see with our own eyes, deducing this massive movement of water that is completely hidden. We are on a tiny boat on the surface, putting in these tiny instruments to measure this giant thing.
When did you feel “I’ve made it” in your career?
A few times. My first single-author paper. My first proposal being funded – that was probably the biggest. Once you have that, the subsequent rejections are not so bad. These are more career milestones than scientific ones, but they make you feel like: Okay, this is actually kind of working.
Was there a surprising result in your research that stands out?
One thing we found was that when the wind blows across the ocean surface, the circulation three kilometers below responds almost instantaneously. We still do not know exactly why it only reacts in this depth so quickly. Another was that we could estimate the strength of the Atlantic overturning circulation using satellite data of sea surface height. A change of two centimeters in sea level is associated with a change in the ocean of one million cubic meters of water per second. That’s five times the Amazon River, based on a signal you can barely measure.
Did you have role models?
Definitely. One that stands out is Susan Lozier, an oceanographer who is an excellent scientist and good with people. I have seen her handle situations with dignity and straightforwardness. She also gave me advice about negotiation, telling her dean when she started her first faculty position: I have two young kids, so the next few years will not be my most productive. It was the idea that it is okay to say, I am a human being. She also organized a group called Mentoring Physical Oceanography Women to Increase Retention.
Did you ever have to fight for something, especially as a woman?
Women are expected to be nice, supportive, to help out. If you help out too much, it can be damaging to your career. There were times I had to push back, and I tend to match the directness of the person I am dealing with. Setting boundaries is important for everyone, not just women.
Did you experience glass ceilings or subtle barriers?
More subtle things. For example, a male supervisor might invite a male student for a drink, but not a female student. Or you might not be invited to fieldwork because you have small children. Social dynamics can play an outsized role. In physical oceanography, which is male-dominated, if you are the only woman, it can be uncomfortable. If my colleague Johanna Baehr had not been here, I would not have considered coming to Hamburg.
Have things changed?
Hard to say. Experiences are so individual. The numbers have changed a little. Until five years ago, there was only one female physical oceanography professor in the UK, and now there are three.
What was your toughest time?
Coming back from maternity leave as a grad student. In the US, I had seven days paid maternity leave. I took three months off, came back, and my laptop died. I had no backups – everything was gone. I had an infant, and I wondered, is this worth it? Fortunately, the IT people took apart my laptop and when they put it back together, it just worked. I have backed up religiously since then.
You have worked in many places, even for NASA. What are the main differences between the US, UK, and Germany in science?
In the US, there is a lot of soft money – you can have a permanent job as long as you bring in grants. If you do not, you might keep your job but have no salary. In Germany, there is a time limit. You have to find a permanent job within a certain period, or you are out. The UK is intermediate, you can get an open-ended contract, but they can fire you.
If you could have one research question answered, what would it be?
What causes the AMOC, the Atlantic Meridional Overturning Circulation, to change? The AMOC is often linked to abrupt changes in climate – potentially on the brink of collapse, as portrayed in Hollywood films. It sounds like a simple question, but the answer is complicated. Different ways of measuring or defining the AMOC can lead to different conclusions. If I had to make the question more specific: What part of the AMOC is most relevant for climate, and how is that part changing? – but understanding what is actually changing, and which parts of the system are driving that change, is more subtle.
Does researching the ocean and climate ever get to you emotionally?
I keep the emotional and scientific sides separate. There is the emotional reaction – climate is changing, bad things are happening. But there is also the fascination: we are forcing the earth very strongly, and it is interesting to find out what will happen, even if you see the devastating consequences. I spend more time on the fascination side, less on doom and gloom.
Has the urgency of climate change politicized you as a scientist?
I vote everywhere I can, in the US, local elections here, in the UK. But I do not put politics in my talks. In the US, politics has become very divisive, and I am not convinced making it about politics is helpful. The climate is there regardless of your political party.
And as a mother?
I tell my kids they can do anything they want, but it has to be related to solving the climate problem – lawyer, economist, politics, anything. My older daughter wants to go into math and computer science. My younger daughter once asked: What if I became an oceanographer, could we write papers together? Sure, I said. That would be wonderful.
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Prof. Eleanor Frajka-Williams, born in 1979 in Los Angeles, is Professor and Head of Experimental Oceanography at the Institute of Oceanography at the University of Hamburg.
